Jared Rypka-Hauer, Lead ColdFusion Developer, Minneapolis, MN
Proud Parents of SQLSurveyor and PayPalMX
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July 25, 2006 - back to top
So much noise... it hurts my head.
CF HAS to have this or it's not going to survive!!
CF should NEVER have that because it's stupid!
You suck!
You think I don't matter!
It's no different than Ruby unless it creates robust applications and runs your dishwasher!
Interfaces are for sissies, use abstract classes, you dimwit!
I don't like peanuts in my cookies!!
So a bunch of wishlists for CF features to be added to Scorpio have gone up in the last few days... just google for "coldfusion wishlist" and you'll see what I mean. People getting viscerally uptight and angry at eachother for things that they can't change, don't matter much overall anyway, and often don't understand entirely anyway. Frankly, I don't really care. CF already does what I NEED it to do and anything else I can easily get thru Java, be it via a built-in Java object or a project like Poi that lets me write to Microsoft document formats easily. The rest of it is a big, giant "WHATEVER" for me.
There isn't anything that it can't be made to do, really, and it serves as a bridge between ftp, smtp, J2EE, http, Acrobat, HTML, JDBC, Flash/Flex, AJA(*choke* I just can't say it... yuck) yadda yadda yadda. It's not perfect, but then nothing that I really love is. In fact, nothing is, at all. Ever. In fact, the only thing I NEED with regards to CF that I don't have is an interactive debugger and decent statistics on server performance. Why is that page performing slowly? Well let me gather some evidence and I'll make an educated guess... it just doesn't fly well. Until we have rock-solid high-end tools, we're going to continue to struggle.
I don't want to play the peace-maker here, getting the various "sides" to play nice... I really just want the "sides" to shut up and get over it. None of it is really as important as we seem to think it is, so let's all go back to work and do our jobs and go home and just shut up. Really. I mean it.
The CF team is going to do what it will do... the requests come in over the course of time, the release date for the next version is targeted, ratios are worked out to rate the relative "importance" of any given feature, and what we get is what we get. Wish lists are really just a way to make some noise. If you want to impact the development cycle, go to the page at Adobe that allows you to request a feature and suggest to your friends and colleagues that they do the same. It's pretty much that simple.
That said, hehe, there are a few things that I'd to see in Scorpio, most of which I've either posted at the Adobe (well, then it was Macromedia) wishlist page or discussed with various CF engineers over time, emailed to Adobe staff, or in some way communicated myself to Adobe directly. If I haven't communicated them to Adobe directly, they're probably not all that important to me anyway.
Laterz!
CF HAS to have this or it's not going to survive!!
CF should NEVER have that because it's stupid!
You suck!
You think I don't matter!
It's no different than Ruby unless it creates robust applications and runs your dishwasher!
Interfaces are for sissies, use abstract classes, you dimwit!
I don't like peanuts in my cookies!!
So a bunch of wishlists for CF features to be added to Scorpio have gone up in the last few days... just google for "coldfusion wishlist" and you'll see what I mean. People getting viscerally uptight and angry at eachother for things that they can't change, don't matter much overall anyway, and often don't understand entirely anyway. Frankly, I don't really care. CF already does what I NEED it to do and anything else I can easily get thru Java, be it via a built-in Java object or a project like Poi that lets me write to Microsoft document formats easily. The rest of it is a big, giant "WHATEVER" for me.
There isn't anything that it can't be made to do, really, and it serves as a bridge between ftp, smtp, J2EE, http, Acrobat, HTML, JDBC, Flash/Flex, AJA(*choke* I just can't say it... yuck) yadda yadda yadda. It's not perfect, but then nothing that I really love is. In fact, nothing is, at all. Ever. In fact, the only thing I NEED with regards to CF that I don't have is an interactive debugger and decent statistics on server performance. Why is that page performing slowly? Well let me gather some evidence and I'll make an educated guess... it just doesn't fly well. Until we have rock-solid high-end tools, we're going to continue to struggle.
I don't want to play the peace-maker here, getting the various "sides" to play nice... I really just want the "sides" to shut up and get over it. None of it is really as important as we seem to think it is, so let's all go back to work and do our jobs and go home and just shut up. Really. I mean it.
The CF team is going to do what it will do... the requests come in over the course of time, the release date for the next version is targeted, ratios are worked out to rate the relative "importance" of any given feature, and what we get is what we get. Wish lists are really just a way to make some noise. If you want to impact the development cycle, go to the page at Adobe that allows you to request a feature and suggest to your friends and colleagues that they do the same. It's pretty much that simple.
That said, hehe, there are a few things that I'd to see in Scorpio, most of which I've either posted at the Adobe (well, then it was Macromedia) wishlist page or discussed with various CF engineers over time, emailed to Adobe staff, or in some way communicated myself to Adobe directly. If I haven't communicated them to Adobe directly, they're probably not all that important to me anyway.
- cfmxml - write MXML directly in your CF page, with the whole UI generated in Flash, directly integrating CF and Flex like CF and HTML do now
- cfremote - create proper remoting objects in Flash Forms, either by attributes containing a name or in the body of the tag
- fileRead(), fileWrite(), and fileDelete() - complementing fileExists()
- fileRead(path[,startPos,endPos])
- fileWrite(path,content,privs,overwrite)
- fileDelete(path)
- directoryRead(), directoryCreate(), and directoryDelete() - complimenting directoryExists()
- directoryRead(path)
- directoryCreate(path,privs,overwrite)
- directoryDelete(path)
- fileFind(fileName) returns a query of found files on disk in the same format as cfdirectory does now
- cfjava - write Java directly in a CF page, treating it like AS functions get treated in FlashForms... methods on the AS Appliction object that get generated by the engine
- Fixes to things like paragraphFormat(text) so they generate valid XHTML, as one example, among the many that work as documented but could be imporved
- An alternative to DOM XML processing
- Enhancements to xmlSearch() that allow it to do clever things like return the xmlText of a found element
- Interfaces
- Large-scale prefabricated UI generation
- Constructors
- Other things that I think are pointless or don't do me and my job any good anyway that I can't think of right now
- Method overloading
- An overriding, strict application architecture (.NET anyone?)
- Multiple inheritance
- Other things, which I can't think of at the moment
Laterz!
Comments
I love the cfmxml idea.
of course, a CF_MXML custom tag would take a few minutes to write - only you'd have to require that the SDK is installed.
Joe, while I sympathize with you not wanting to read a lot of wish lists, I'm also extremely happy that not too many people share your sentiment. CF should continue to improve. The CF Server team doesn't just "do what they will do" - they respond to customer feedback... and thank goodness for that!
I don't know if my blog post was the first on the "please add this to CF 8" blog list and if I did start it, I apologize for causing you headaches.
Either way, I would like to point out that I also regularly communicate with CF Server Team members in various ways and have been doing so for many, many years... but that I intentionally chose to blog my list. I think the server team will benefit from reading the dialog it creates, including whatever feature requests other people then choose to blog or comment on. These are requests that may otherwise have not made it to the team.
Are blogs the official means of communication? No. But they're a very valuable one, in my opinion... and I'd rather throw my list out there for people than send each request via a form manually (not knowing where it ends up) or worse - mentioning it on the phone or in person to a team member and hope they remember to give it some thought and bring it up with the rest of the team.
Bottom line, if you really don't like reading the blog wishlists... don't read them ;)
Joe, while I sympathize with you not wanting to read a lot of wish lists, I'm also extremely happy that not too many people share your sentiment. CF should continue to improve. The CF Server team doesn't just "do what they will do" - they respond to customer feedback... and thank goodness for that!
I don't know if my blog post was the first on the "please add this to CF 8" blog list and if I did start it, I apologize for causing you headaches.
Either way, I would like to point out that I also regularly communicate with CF Server Team members in various ways and have been doing so for many, many years... but that I intentionally chose to blog my list. I think the server team will benefit from reading the dialog it creates, including whatever feature requests other people then choose to blog or comment on. These are requests that may otherwise have not made it to the team.
Are blogs the official means of communication? No. But they're a very valuable one, in my opinion... and I'd rather throw my list out there for people than send each request via a form manually (not knowing where it ends up) or worse - mentioning it on the phone or in person to a team member and hope they remember to give it some thought and bring it up with the rest of the team.
Bottom line, if you really don't like reading the blog wishlists... don't read them ;)
It's statements like
"I really just want the "sides" to shut up and get over it. None of it is really as important as we seem to think it is, so let's all go back to work and do our jobs and go home and just shut up. Really. I mean it. The CF team is going to do what it will do..."
that scare me, Jared. I think this is a *perfect* time for an open dialogue in the community to let the Adobe developers know what questions we are asking and what things different people would like to see. I for one was thrilled to see that Ben and Jason Delmore (the CF Senior Product Manager) both not only read my blog post, but agree with most of it. If you want to silently sit back and wait to see what they give us, hooray for you. I'd rather voice my opinion with the knowledge that it can have in impact.
"I really just want the "sides" to shut up and get over it. None of it is really as important as we seem to think it is, so let's all go back to work and do our jobs and go home and just shut up. Really. I mean it. The CF team is going to do what it will do..."
that scare me, Jared. I think this is a *perfect* time for an open dialogue in the community to let the Adobe developers know what questions we are asking and what things different people would like to see. I for one was thrilled to see that Ben and Jason Delmore (the CF Senior Product Manager) both not only read my blog post, but agree with most of it. If you want to silently sit back and wait to see what they give us, hooray for you. I'd rather voice my opinion with the knowledge that it can have in impact.
First of all, I am Jared. Not Joe. Joe is someone else, and I know several of them. You are, perhaps thinking of Joe Rinehart, who's blog is located at:
http://www.clearsoftware.net
Sorry to contribute to your confusion. Perhaps we should limit the English-language choices for male names starting with J to one option per language. All this alphabetical overloading is hard on my memory.
And, I'd like to point out, that it's my blog and I'll comment on whatever I'd like to. :) I mean, seriously, if people can comment on why they think one thing is dumb, why can't I comment on another?
Also, you fail to recognize the fact that I included several items I'd like to see in the next version of CF. SO I AGREE THAT IT SHOULD CONTINUE TO IMPROVE... good lord, Simon... you think I want to see it die or something?
Get real.
However instead of posting a wishlist, I posted things I've sent to Adobe or discussed with engineers because they're meaningful to me... there's a difference between saying "I think CF should have method overloading" and saying "I think THIS TAG would be handy because I have a real use for it, and based on how I know CF to work, this is how it might be done."
The former is totally abstract and comes off as fanciful, pointless and as though the person who said it needed to say something that sounded expertish. It sounds like someone learned a cool word and said "OH, CF should have that too!" It's annoying... and, IMO it's a pointless waste of CF team time and server space, not to mention the runtime processing and CFC bloat that would be required to make it work.
The latter says "Here's a concrete situation wherein I've found something that CF could do, that would be of benefit to me, and I think it can be done based on how I know CF to work." It got contributed thru official channels and discussed with engineers. It didn't inspire bickering, infighting, and pointless conflict.
I think that's how we're most coming to resemble the Java world... the bickering and infighting and "my way is the better way."
So I don't like wishlists, yet I choose to read them... if you don't like it, don't read my commentary on wishlists.
http://www.clearsoftware.net
Sorry to contribute to your confusion. Perhaps we should limit the English-language choices for male names starting with J to one option per language. All this alphabetical overloading is hard on my memory.
And, I'd like to point out, that it's my blog and I'll comment on whatever I'd like to. :) I mean, seriously, if people can comment on why they think one thing is dumb, why can't I comment on another?
Also, you fail to recognize the fact that I included several items I'd like to see in the next version of CF. SO I AGREE THAT IT SHOULD CONTINUE TO IMPROVE... good lord, Simon... you think I want to see it die or something?
Get real.
However instead of posting a wishlist, I posted things I've sent to Adobe or discussed with engineers because they're meaningful to me... there's a difference between saying "I think CF should have method overloading" and saying "I think THIS TAG would be handy because I have a real use for it, and based on how I know CF to work, this is how it might be done."
The former is totally abstract and comes off as fanciful, pointless and as though the person who said it needed to say something that sounded expertish. It sounds like someone learned a cool word and said "OH, CF should have that too!" It's annoying... and, IMO it's a pointless waste of CF team time and server space, not to mention the runtime processing and CFC bloat that would be required to make it work.
The latter says "Here's a concrete situation wherein I've found something that CF could do, that would be of benefit to me, and I think it can be done based on how I know CF to work." It got contributed thru official channels and discussed with engineers. It didn't inspire bickering, infighting, and pointless conflict.
I think that's how we're most coming to resemble the Java world... the bickering and infighting and "my way is the better way."
So I don't like wishlists, yet I choose to read them... if you don't like it, don't read my commentary on wishlists.
Brian,
Good point... point taken, in fact. I agree that "open dialog" is important, which is why I provided links to the Adobe page, why I have talked to engineers, and why I talk to people in the community at every opportunity... but there's a difference between open dialog and openly minimizing the importance of different things to different people.
Suggesting that Adobe focus on UI generation to the exclusion of people who would benefit from a more robust language in other respects is where I took issue with your post. It was very dismissive of those that want stronger, richer backend tools. I don't blame Dave for getting angry, either, and while I don't really know where I stand on some issues, what my gut tells me is that saying "we're turning CF into Java Lite" is not just unfair to those who need (or very strongly want) the things that are being asked for, but is a good way to kill innovation and forward momentum in general.
Then, as I read the comments on your post, I started feeling more and more frustrated... we divide ourselves into camps, some left out of others and most feeling frustrated and eventually the whole community suffers. It's that phenomenon that prompted my post. CF vs Ruby, Java Lite, UI vs backend tools... it's a lot of pointless noise a lot of the time.
So debate is good... to a point. We seem to be getting better at taking it to extremes and I don't want to see our community torn apart by zealotry. My suggestion that the "sides" shut up stems from my feeling that "open dialog" is different than "open season on those who disagree" and that we have a tendency to confuse the two.
Maybe, as CF grows and the tasks we all face become ever more varied, such visceral disagreements is inevitable... I don't know. But I do know that I get tired of arguing with Java developers on one side and other CF developers on the other side. It's bad enough that we have to deal with being dismissed by other development communities, but to be dismissed by our own "bretheren" just adds insult to injury.
Good point... point taken, in fact. I agree that "open dialog" is important, which is why I provided links to the Adobe page, why I have talked to engineers, and why I talk to people in the community at every opportunity... but there's a difference between open dialog and openly minimizing the importance of different things to different people.
Suggesting that Adobe focus on UI generation to the exclusion of people who would benefit from a more robust language in other respects is where I took issue with your post. It was very dismissive of those that want stronger, richer backend tools. I don't blame Dave for getting angry, either, and while I don't really know where I stand on some issues, what my gut tells me is that saying "we're turning CF into Java Lite" is not just unfair to those who need (or very strongly want) the things that are being asked for, but is a good way to kill innovation and forward momentum in general.
Then, as I read the comments on your post, I started feeling more and more frustrated... we divide ourselves into camps, some left out of others and most feeling frustrated and eventually the whole community suffers. It's that phenomenon that prompted my post. CF vs Ruby, Java Lite, UI vs backend tools... it's a lot of pointless noise a lot of the time.
So debate is good... to a point. We seem to be getting better at taking it to extremes and I don't want to see our community torn apart by zealotry. My suggestion that the "sides" shut up stems from my feeling that "open dialog" is different than "open season on those who disagree" and that we have a tendency to confuse the two.
Maybe, as CF grows and the tasks we all face become ever more varied, such visceral disagreements is inevitable... I don't know. But I do know that I get tired of arguing with Java developers on one side and other CF developers on the other side. It's bad enough that we have to deal with being dismissed by other development communities, but to be dismissed by our own "bretheren" just adds insult to injury.
"Suggesting that Adobe focus on UI generation to the exclusion of people who would benefit from a more robust language in other respects is where I took issue with your post. It was very dismissive of those that want stronger, richer backend tools. I don't blame Dave for getting angry..."
As much as I respect Dave, I do blame him for getting angry. Can a person like me not simply ask a question? If he disagrees, fine. He can state his case just like I can. There is no reason at all to get so emotional about it. If there is zealotry brewing in the community, its root cause is in those who replace logic with unfiltered emotion.
But anyway, I also disagree that I am being dismissive of those who want additional OO capabilities. I understand completely where they are coming from. As I said, I would use those features myself if they are in fact added. Until recently I would probably be firmly in their camp. Only recently have I begun to question the objective (no pun intended) benefits of doing that, when you compare them to the benefits of focusing on features that have a much larger impact on a much larger audience. If Adobe would just go the extra distance and make it ridiculously easy to transparently integrate Java domain models into our CF apps, it seems to me that everyone wins: everyone gets killer presentation capabilities, small or medium shops can use CFCs - which have already been demonstrated to be very capable (look at Reactor or Mach-II), and those who really need the advanced OO stuff can go all the way and build it in Java, a language whose OO capabilities will always dwarf CF no matter how many OO features they add. I don't see how what I am saying could be labeled "dismissive".
As much as I respect Dave, I do blame him for getting angry. Can a person like me not simply ask a question? If he disagrees, fine. He can state his case just like I can. There is no reason at all to get so emotional about it. If there is zealotry brewing in the community, its root cause is in those who replace logic with unfiltered emotion.
But anyway, I also disagree that I am being dismissive of those who want additional OO capabilities. I understand completely where they are coming from. As I said, I would use those features myself if they are in fact added. Until recently I would probably be firmly in their camp. Only recently have I begun to question the objective (no pun intended) benefits of doing that, when you compare them to the benefits of focusing on features that have a much larger impact on a much larger audience. If Adobe would just go the extra distance and make it ridiculously easy to transparently integrate Java domain models into our CF apps, it seems to me that everyone wins: everyone gets killer presentation capabilities, small or medium shops can use CFCs - which have already been demonstrated to be very capable (look at Reactor or Mach-II), and those who really need the advanced OO stuff can go all the way and build it in Java, a language whose OO capabilities will always dwarf CF no matter how many OO features they add. I don't see how what I am saying could be labeled "dismissive".
Jared, while I understand some of your sentiments, I think your point is being lost in the harshness of your message. By this I mean that your caricaturizing the debate is inspiring others to get defensive which isn't very constructive. I think your point about how the community has sometimes pushed people into taking sides is a good one...but I also believe that generally starting spirited debate within the community is a positive and this can come with people sharing their thoughts via blog posts or on mailing lists or whatever. I also think it is obvious that some folks at Adobe watch these posts and listen to them (whether they choose to enact the requested changes or not). I also think this is an excellent thing, and while I have not posted a wishlist, I am glad to know that the folks at Adobe might be listening and won't refer to it as a "big giant WHATEVER".
So "spirited debate" is a good thing... today.
As is often the case, what's "in" and what's "out" change often. Last week, the "spirited debate" regarding frameworks and so on was out. This week, it's ok to talk about UI vs backend, but will it be next week? We can only wait and see.
I had a feeling, a sentiment... and, frankly, while I may step on some toes I feel completely justified saying what I think in my blog. Maybe I'm wrong. If I'm wrong I'm wrong... nothing lost, nothing gained. Maybe I misinterpreted something. I dunno... if I missed someone's point, I'll guarantee you I'm not the only one and maybe a bit more explanation is in order on the part of those who said the things that prompted my post.
Anyway, I'm sorry you think I'm inspiring people to be defensive. That was not my goal... my goal was simply to put forth my own personal reaction to the current events in the CF community, which, largely, had to do with how sad it is that we're working so hard to fragment ourselves.
Laterz...
As is often the case, what's "in" and what's "out" change often. Last week, the "spirited debate" regarding frameworks and so on was out. This week, it's ok to talk about UI vs backend, but will it be next week? We can only wait and see.
I had a feeling, a sentiment... and, frankly, while I may step on some toes I feel completely justified saying what I think in my blog. Maybe I'm wrong. If I'm wrong I'm wrong... nothing lost, nothing gained. Maybe I misinterpreted something. I dunno... if I missed someone's point, I'll guarantee you I'm not the only one and maybe a bit more explanation is in order on the part of those who said the things that prompted my post.
Anyway, I'm sorry you think I'm inspiring people to be defensive. That was not my goal... my goal was simply to put forth my own personal reaction to the current events in the CF community, which, largely, had to do with how sad it is that we're working so hard to fragment ourselves.
Laterz...
Brian K,
Maybe, just maybe, I reacted to the wrong part of your post... maybe I need to re-read it a few times.
Maybe the thread of being left behind because I haven't had time or interest in learning Java caused me to feel that you were dismissing my one opportunity to participate in the language and the aspect of using that language that I truly love... middleware. Maybe you didn't MEAN to be dismissive but you communicated your thoughts in such a way, unintentionally though it may have been, that left a few people feeling a bit like you didn't really care what happened.
Besides that, giving CF a bit more of a boost in the OO department isn't building Java Lite, it's building more robust OO development tools into CF.
Anyway... I'm sure we agree on far more than we disagree on and, as is usually the case, Reality exists somewhere between us.
How about we meet there for a beer?
Laterz...
Maybe, just maybe, I reacted to the wrong part of your post... maybe I need to re-read it a few times.
Maybe the thread of being left behind because I haven't had time or interest in learning Java caused me to feel that you were dismissing my one opportunity to participate in the language and the aspect of using that language that I truly love... middleware. Maybe you didn't MEAN to be dismissive but you communicated your thoughts in such a way, unintentionally though it may have been, that left a few people feeling a bit like you didn't really care what happened.
Besides that, giving CF a bit more of a boost in the OO department isn't building Java Lite, it's building more robust OO development tools into CF.
Anyway... I'm sure we agree on far more than we disagree on and, as is usually the case, Reality exists somewhere between us.
How about we meet there for a beer?
Laterz...
Sorry Jared - was reading a post of Joe's in another tab and accidentally swapped names on y'all.
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